KFA - Krishnamurti Foundation of America

sds · 2012-02-27 01:21:42

I really want to understand what it means to be a follower, to follow.

What constitutes following?

Most of us on here have read K books, is that following?

Can one read books by K or any other spiritual teacher and still not be a follower? Or just by being interested in what he/she has to say, and reading a book by them, does that automatically make one a follower?

What is the whole nature and structure of following, being a follower?

I have read many books by various authors, teachers, gurus, but I never really thought of myself as a follower per se.

I always thought of myself as an independent thinker and person.

K warned us against following anyone or accepting anyone as an authority.

And ironically, for some of us, we have turned K himself into our authority and follow him. We are his followers.

Eden · 2012-02-27 02:27:48

One the participants here is particularly defensive when it comes to this notion of "learning" from another human being in any form at all. She immediately and harshly labels anyone as a "follower" if any such remote suggestion is made. I totally understand where that comes from and I totally understand her perspective as I held the same perspective not so long ago. In a world of followers and clones, her reaction is understandable.

She has basically gone so far at times as to deny that "learning" is even possible at all, talking about timelessness and how "learning" is really just "becoming" or "desire" or she will start making all-or-nothing type statements suggesting that one is either free of all patterns, or not free at all, totally transformed, or not transformed at all, totally aware or not aware, etc, I used to hold the same black-n-white perspective, so I understand it well.

She seems particularly resistant to the possibility that there may be a more open, sensitive, or intelligent human being than K or herself, or someone more potent at breaking old patterns in others. Should such a person ever come along she would naturally have to deny it. The very notion of it is totally absurd to her(and her mind and body revolts at the sheer thought of it). K seems to be her anchor, her rock, which is totally understandable since she views him as far more insightful than herself. Were someone more open and loving and sensitive than K come along she would naturally be pulled to learn from that person which god forbid might make her a follower or student of some sort(or inspired at least) and god forbid we must deny that at all costs!

It is perfectly cool to learn from K because after all he spoke against followers totally. So you see, for pearl it's totally cool to follow someone or have a guru as long as your guru is totally against followers and authority. It doesn't count then! It's great because you are also still free to belittle and rail against all those immature second-hand human beings who still learn from others.

You can have your cake and throw it too.

Last edited by Eden (2012-02-27 02:33:45)

Eden · 2012-02-27 02:28:58

I see no problem in learning from another human body or from a pile of buffalo dung if it is creating true openness/love in the body. That is the true test--are you becoming more loving and more deeply open and more able to feel into the hearts of others and into the entire moment? That is the true and only test. Who cares how or why it is happening, as long as it is happening. Knowledge is not the measure obviously....love, sensitivity, true openness is the measure.

If K is more more skilled/aware at perceiving the patterns that limit our capacity to love and feel, it is perfectly natural to want to learn from him. Why not? Hang on his every word until you can stand on your own two feet. Learn everything you can about him and from him. The funny thing is that K simultaneously made everyone paranoid and fearful to even touch the notion of learning from a human being more intelligent or skilled in any area that even remotely seems to pertain to the "psychological". It has become like the cardinal sin.

What you end up with is a whole group of bodies in a world of self-isolation, all trying to see their own patterns, like the left eye trying to see the right eye, totally closed off to other human beings who through the trials and tribulations of life have busted through many of the patterns they themselves are still stuck in--all totally rigid, viciously protecting themselves against teachers in any form(other than K) even when that teacher may simply be a heart more open than theirs.

Ekanta · 2012-02-27 05:50:05

To be a follower, is also a think, but for me, to be a disciple or a real sannyasin brings more beauty, to surrender to a master, that is the exercise of being a disciple is it?

kirsten · 2012-02-27 06:45:59

sorry ekanta but you better not surrender to a human being..
a so-called master is a human being with a mind and its tricks.
is there anything to surrender to other than life itself ?
the disciple of life is exercising the discipline of forever learning from life.

Jayaraj · 2012-02-27 06:50:12

I think a person becomes a follower when he/she accepts anything another says as true without realizing it him/herself.

Ekanta · 2012-02-27 09:22:51

kirsten wrote:
sorry ekanta but you better not surrender to a human being..
a so-called master is a human being with a mind and its tricks.
is there anything to surrender to other than life itself ?
the disciple of life is exercising the discipline of forever learning from life.

That us beautiful...
Thank you,
Ekanta

sds · 2012-02-27 09:57:13

Thanks Eden for taking the time to share those wonderful, eloquent posts. They are right on and totally hit the mark... I wholeheartedly agree with what you wrote and see the same exact thing about following....

pearl · 2012-02-27 11:15:30

You and eden are the perfect examples of what it means to be a follower, so you need not go very far to see. You are like two kids who are still crawling, refusing to stand up and walk for the fear that you might fall.

Last edited by pearl (2012-02-27 11:16:45)

sds · 2012-02-27 13:26:06

pearl wrote:
You and eden are the perfect examples of what it means to be a follower, so you need not go very far to see. You are like two kids who are still crawling, refusing to stand up and walk for the fear that you might fall.

So to know what it means to be a follower, you are suggesting I just look at myself. I dont have to look very far or wide, just look within.... Thanks for the great advice Pearl....

sds · 2012-02-27 13:29:13

Eden, I am your follower now too. Besides my stacks of Guru books (the Ramanas, the Krishnamurtis, the Dalai Lamas) that I have and go through daily, I am adding you to my list. I feel you are more skilled at certain things than me and am turning to you to learn those skills. But I am following you in the sense as you talked about above and that I wholeheartedly agree with, which really isnt following at all.... It is just learning......

sds · 2012-02-27 14:05:12

I did a quick search under the texts for what K said about followers. He was pretty consistent in his vehemence against them.

The gurus and their followers he would pour scorn on, that whole dynamic.

The funny thing is what was he? We have to seriously ask if he was a leader or a guru or a teacher in any way, and if he had followers too?

I really do not think K was that different from all those he likes to put down and pour scorn on.

There really is a fine, small line between all of this.

Ramana Maharshi despite Pearls remarks, never said he was a Guru. He was similar to K in that regard. When those came to him to be initiated by him or be accepted as his disciple, he would refuse and say he is not their guru.

I have a book by one of those close to him, and he shared how Ramana would not even let many bow to him as was the custom in India. So many similarities to K. K was not the only light or world teacher. And also, Ramana distanced himself from this person so that this person would not be attached to him, to his physical form. Ramana taught him to rely totally on himself and not on anybody outside himself. Again, very similar to K.

So the bottom line to me is one can learn from many and still not be a follower....

sds · 2012-02-27 14:06:57

pearl wrote:
You and eden are the perfect examples of what it means to be a follower, so you need not go very far to see. You are like two kids who are still crawling, refusing to stand up and walk for the fear that you might fall.

Yes, the Deida follower and the Ramana follower... I got it.....

sds · 2012-02-27 14:08:12

Ekanta wrote:
kirsten wrote:
sorry ekanta but you better not surrender to a human being..
a so-called master is a human being with a mind and its tricks.
is there anything to surrender to other than life itself ?
the disciple of life is exercising the discipline of forever learning from life.
That us beautiful...
Thank you,
Ekanta

Yes, I agree, very beautiful. Thanks Kirsten.

sds · 2012-02-27 14:10:25

Jayaraj wrote:
I think a person becomes a follower when he/she accepts anything another says as true without realizing it him/herself.

So in regards to K and his teachings, you personally do not accept anything he says without first realizing it yourself? Is this correct? Or do you see yourself as a K follower?

sds · 2012-02-27 14:15:06

Ekanta wrote:
To be a follower, is also a think, but for me, to be a disciple or a real sannyasin brings more beauty, to surrender to a master, that is the exercise of being a disciple is it?

Have you ever been a disciple, a sannyasin?

I was at one time a disciple for a American Female Guru, but it didnt last very long for I could not submit or surrender to her.

I am a very strong individual with my own opinions and I could not follow another. This Guru wanted me to follow her, and her ways, but I just could not and within a few weeks left her.

But in the spiritual literature, there are many beautiful stories about disciples who serve their gurus or have a close beautiful relationship.

I know what K says and he dismisses all of this, but I dont necessarily dismiss it all so easily. There is a place for some few where the guru/disciple relationship does seem to work. Just not in my case.

And when I refer to Ramana, he is long dead and I cannot be his disciple, I just know him from his books.....

Eden · 2012-02-27 14:32:21

I took my car to a mechanic the other day. Shame on me for trusting him to fix my car. I really should look within and find the mechanic within myself, but alas I am just a lazy coward who cannot stand on my own two feet.

I have another confession while I am at it....not too long ago I flew on an airplane. I didn't know the pilot and I trusted my life in his hands. I know, I should be ashamed. I had faith in his skills to fly the plane and guide me to my specific destination. I realize I should learn to fly for myself, but alas I am too lazy and would rather put my faith in the authority and skills of others. Clearly I am just a little boy who still needs a daddy to teach me and guide me through life. Perhaps I will grow up one day and stop relying on others who perceive certain patterns better than I...until then, I will just continue to be the weak little follower that I am.

Eden · 2012-02-27 14:38:38

sds wrote:
Eden, I am your follower now too. Besides my stacks of Guru books (the Ramanas, the Krishnamurtis, the Dalai Lamas) that I have and go through daily, I am adding you to my list. I feel you are more skilled at certain things than me and am turning to you to learn those skills. But I am following you in the sense as you talked about above and that I wholeheartedly agree with, which really isnt following at all.... It is just learning......

Don't forget to add pearl to your list.

Ekanta · 2012-02-27 14:41:59

sds wrote:
Ekanta wrote:
To be a follower, is also a think, but for me, to be a disciple or a real sannyasin brings more beauty, to surrender to a master, that is the exercise of being a disciple is it?
Have you ever been a disciple, a sannyasin?

I was at one time a disciple for a American Female Guru, but it didnt last very long for I could not submit or surrender to her.

I am a very strong individual with my own opinions and I could not follow another. This Guru wanted me to follow her, and her ways, but I just could not and within a few weeks left her.

But in the spiritual literature, there are many beautiful stories about disciples who serve their gurus or have a close beautiful relationship.

I know what K says and he dismisses all of this, but I dont necessarily dismiss it all so easily. There is a place for some few where the guru/disciple relationship does seem to work. Just not in my case.

And when I refer to Ramana, he is long dead and I cannot be his disciple, I just know him from his books.....

I have Osho, so, not so serious...but I really appreciated like you do...

tree · 2012-02-27 14:43:45

Ekanta wrote:
sds wrote:
Ekanta wrote:
To be a follower, is also a think, but for me, to be a disciple or a real sannyasin brings more beauty, to surrender to a master, that is the exercise of being a disciple is it?
Have you ever been a disciple, a sannyasin?

I was at one time a disciple for a American Female Guru, but it didnt last very long for I could not submit or surrender to her.

I am a very strong individual with my own opinions and I could not follow another. This Guru wanted me to follow her, and her ways, but I just could not and within a few weeks left her.

But in the spiritual literature, there are many beautiful stories about disciples who serve their gurus or have a close beautiful relationship.

I know what K says and he dismisses all of this, but I dont necessarily dismiss it all so easily. There is a place for some few where the guru/disciple relationship does seem to work. Just not in my case.

And when I refer to Ramana, he is long dead and I cannot be his disciple, I just know him from his books.....
I have Osho, so, not so serious...but I really appreciated like you do...

free tree!

tree · 2012-02-27 14:44:46

now!

Eden · 2012-02-27 14:59:52

Some bodies are more skilled at perceiving your own patterns and bullshit than you are. That is a fact. If you are at all intelligent, you will easily determine who those people are. For some that person is Jiddu. Great, start there if that is helping your mind and body to open.

Eventually you may come to the place where you are the most potent pattern and shell breaker on planet earth with a body that is wide open, but until then, why not get a few shortcuts from those who have given their life and heart to it while you have been busy working at your job, jabbering in K forums, and in general wasting your time.

tree · 2012-02-27 15:09:45

surf's up

snguyen · 2012-02-27 15:36:25

people call me by all names like k nut, k snuggy, k icon, k monkey, k asshole, k ism, k follower,
k domination and they are here also somewhat related to k forum. For me, I call myself k happiness. ;-))

tree · 2012-02-27 15:38:46

thou art blessed

KFA - Krishnamurti Foundation of America

Announcement

#1 2012-02-27 01:21:42

What does it mean to be a follower?

#2 2012-02-27 02:27:48

Re: What does it mean to be a follower?

#3 2012-02-27 02:28:58

Re: What does it mean to be a follower?

#4 2012-02-27 05:50:05

Re: What does it mean to be a follower?

#5 2012-02-27 06:45:59

Re: What does it mean to be a follower?

#6 2012-02-27 06:50:12

Re: What does it mean to be a follower?

#7 2012-02-27 09:22:51

Re: What does it mean to be a follower?

kirsten wrote:

#8 2012-02-27 09:57:13

Re: What does it mean to be a follower?

#9 2012-02-27 11:15:30

Re: What does it mean to be a follower?

#10 2012-02-27 13:26:06

Re: What does it mean to be a follower?

pearl wrote:

#11 2012-02-27 13:29:13

Re: What does it mean to be a follower?

#12 2012-02-27 14:05:12

Re: What does it mean to be a follower?

#13 2012-02-27 14:06:57

Re: What does it mean to be a follower?

pearl wrote:

#14 2012-02-27 14:08:12

Re: What does it mean to be a follower?

Ekanta wrote:

kirsten wrote:

#15 2012-02-27 14:10:25

Re: What does it mean to be a follower?

Jayaraj wrote:

#16 2012-02-27 14:15:06

Re: What does it mean to be a follower?

Ekanta wrote:

#17 2012-02-27 14:32:21

Re: What does it mean to be a follower?

#18 2012-02-27 14:38:38

Re: What does it mean to be a follower?

sds wrote:

#19 2012-02-27 14:41:59

Re: What does it mean to be a follower?

sds wrote:

Ekanta wrote:

#20 2012-02-27 14:43:45

Re: What does it mean to be a follower?

Ekanta wrote:

sds wrote:

Ekanta wrote:

#21 2012-02-27 14:44:46

Re: What does it mean to be a follower?

#22 2012-02-27 14:59:52

Re: What does it mean to be a follower?

#23 2012-02-27 15:09:45

Re: What does it mean to be a follower?

#24 2012-02-27 15:36:25

Re: What does it mean to be a follower?

#25 2012-02-27 15:38:46

Re: What does it mean to be a follower?

Board footer